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  1. Jonathan,

    I’ve read a few of your posts on the SB site Guardian Ministries and find your comments about the LDS faith as a cult disconcerting.

    I don’t know what your definition of a cult is, but I can assure you that my religion is not a cult.

    It’s sad that you feel that our doctrine is false, but I assure you that it is the correct doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike all of the confused dialog on that website about baptism, with the coming forth of modern scripture and a living prophet, we don’t have to wonder what is right or wrong.

    I would hope at sometime you take a closer look at the LDS religion if you are truly interested in following Jesus Christ.

    Peace.

    Scott

    Comment by scott — January 10, 2007 @ 6:41 pm

  2. Scott,

    Thanks for stopping by.

    Perhaps “cult” is the wrong word to describe the Mormon religion. Maybe “false religion” (like Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism) would be a better term. The fact is that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, and thus a religion based on his teachings and experiences must be considered false, just like Mohammad is a false prophet, and thus Islam is false.

    Scott, what do you mean by “modern scripture” – ? Do you believe that the Bible as it currently stands is insufficient?

    If you believe that the Scripture, as it currently stands, is being added to TODAY, then you are violating what it says in the Bible, and you are also proving my point that Mormonism and LDS is a false religion.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan

    Comment by Jonathan — January 10, 2007 @ 7:27 pm

  3. Jonathan,

    Can you explain how you feel Joseph Smith is a false prophet? How do you come to that conclusion?

    The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are what I’m referring to regarding modern day scripture.

    If you are referring to the comments in Revelation about adding to this book then you don’t understand how the Bible was put together in its current form.

    I don’t understand where you (meaning those who claim Joseph Smith is a false prophet) base your comments and conclusions.

    Its hard to say that a religion is false when it was established by Jesus Christ himself. It is set up just as the church was when Jesus called His twelve apostles and taught them the gospel.

    No where on this earth do you find a prophet and apostles, just as in the times of old.

    I’m sorry that people don’t clearly understand the Bible they claim to love and endear themselves to. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Not a thousand different types of churches. Just one. The only way to God’s kingdom is through Christ and following His commandments. No other church teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    It’s not a false church or a false prophet because you say so. Jesus Christ himself has declared that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the earth. If someone told me that Jesus said that, I think I’d want to know more and how it came to pass.

    I could list many reasons why the Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Lutherens are all incorrect in their teachings. Namely, none of them have the authority to act in Christ’s name. The Catholics claim it, but don’t understand it. No one else lays claim to having the literal authority from Jesus. I could go on and on but it would be fruitless.

    Don’t shoot something down until you have investigated it. I’m sorry you don’t understand the Bible and its teachings to say that other books of scripture can’t be true.

    If you ever want to know the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ all you have to do is ask.

    Peace.

    Scott

    Comment by scott — January 11, 2007 @ 12:37 am

  4. Scott,

    Boy, we really disagree on several accounts.

    First, Joseph Smith is considered a false prophet because we (I’m speaking of non-Mormon Christians) do not consider his prophecies to be valid ones. Quite frankly, we consider the substance of his prophecies to not line up with the 66 Books of the Bible (which is what I will refer to as Scripture). The Scriptures (Genesis thru Revelation) are considered the “more sure word of prophecy.” Everything that is prophecied by everyone in the NT era must have their words judged by the Bible. The Bible is the standard for everything, and if it does not line up with that, then it is false. What Joseph Smith received concerning prophecy does NOT line up with the Scriptures at all, and therefore because the Mormon religion bases several of its main tenets (though not all), and therefore the Mormon religion is likewise false.

    You said that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are “modern-day scripture.” This is CLEARLY agaisnt the teachings of the Bible. Not only are these books adding to the Word of God, which is prohibited in the Bible, but also the very teachings of the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants ALSO teach revelation that goes against what is taught in the Bible. That’s why it is false. It is NOT “modern-day scripture.” You are deceived if you think it is.

    The Mormon religion was not established by Jesus Christ. It was established by Joseph Smith, and his followers. Christianity is THE true religion, YES, because it was established by Jesus Christ. Mormonism is NOT the same as Christianity.

    You said, “nowhere on this earth do you find apostles and prophets, just as in times of old.” Actually, this is factually inaccurate. Nowhere in the Bible has God ended or ceased dispensing the gifts of apostle and prophet. In fact, I’ll be doing a blog entry on this in a few weeks. Eph. 4:11-13 says, “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the statute that belongs to the fullness of Christ.” Because this has not happened yet, that all Christians have not achieved the unity of the faith, and are still in need of being equipped (verse 12), then God is still dispensing the gifts of apostle and prophet, and also the gifts of evangelist, pastor, and teacher, as well.

    Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus declare that “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the earth.” Jesus never said that anywhere in the 66 Books of the Bible (Genesis thru Revelation). So, by you saying that, you have lost all credibility.

    You state that all the Christian denominations lack the authority to act in Christ’s name. That is incorrect. Quite frankly, ALL Christians have the power and authority to act in Christ’s name, and I rebuke you for spreading false doctrine, in the name of Jesus.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan

    Comment by Jonathan — January 11, 2007 @ 5:50 am

  5. Jonathan,

    I find it interesting that you don’t respond to any of my questions and give no true answers. Can you tell me how the Bible was put together? Are you ignorant to the fact that it was not a book that was written from front to back and when John talked about adding to the book he was speaking about his own writings?

    A man of your intelligence should know these facts.

    Christ did give some apostles and prophets etc. No where do you find them except at the head of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you choose to follow their counsel, you will be following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.

    You said, “Everything that is prophecied by everyone in the NT era must have their words judged by the Bible. The Bible is the standard for everything, and if it does not line up with that, then it is false.” Where do you make up such ridiculous comments?

    Jesus did restore his church just as he said he would. The Bible preaches about a falling away and that a restoration would be needed. Do you believe what is really written in your Bible?

    You have no power or priesthood authority from Christ. If so, please provide me with where you obtained such authority. Did you have the laying on of hands by one who has the authority? Please share. The Bible teaches that you can’t take this authority upon yourself and that it isn’t for sale. Do you believe your Bible?

    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism…. how many churches did Christ establish when he was on the earth? One! How many are there now and all of you read the same Bible? Why the different interpretations? Why the inconsistencies? Your Bible talks about the Book of Mormon. Have your read those verses in Ezekiel 37? Do you really believe your Bible? If you do, then you must accept that the Bible is the stick of Judah and where is the stick of Ephraim? Why, my friend, it is the Book of Mormon!

    I hope that you will do a little further in studying the Bible and understand how it was constructed into one book. I don’t preach false doctrine. I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    It saddens me when people like you speak as if you are speaking the factually but really have no clue about what you are speaking. That’s not bad if one takes to learning. But you don’t seem to want to do that.

    Your whole premise is that the Bible is the whole word of God. It is the word of God, but not everything that God told people who lived on the earth. People searching for truth should welcome other scriptures that actually clarify teachings of the Bible.

    I don’t need your arrogant rebuke. You are not serving the Master. I hope that you will come to your senses and look for truth wherever it may be found, even in the Book of Mormon.

    Scott

    Comment by Scott — January 12, 2007 @ 7:06 pm

  6. Scott,

    I did respond to your questions. You’re not listening to my answers.

    I know how the Bible was historically canonized. The fact is, when a religious group (e.g. LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or somebody else) adds further doctrine or revelation to the 66 Books of the Bible, that’s wrong. Its wrong because the 66 Books of the Bible is the “more sure word of prophecy,” and the final authority on matters of faith and practice. When you add to the Bible other religious books that contradict the Bible, that’s a sign you’re either a cult or a false religion, or both. Jehovah’s Witnesses are guilty of this. And so is your group, the Mormons. I can go to any website on the Internet that makes the distinctions and explains the differences between Mormonism and Christianity, and my point is made here.

    The reason why I said that the Bible is the standard for everything is because it is identified as the “more sure word of prophecy” in the Bible. See 2 Peter 1:19. Further, 1 Thess. 5:20-21 instructs us, “Do not despise prophetic utterances, but examine everything (or test everything) carefully; hold fast to that which is good.” We are to examine and test prophecy in the light of the Bible. Lastly on this point, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” These passages explain why the Bible is the basis for everything, and why every prophecy given after the Bible was put together must line up with it. The Book of Mormon, along with the Doctrine and Covenants do NOT like up with the Bible. They are wrong and heretical pieces of literature, and a sign that LDS is a false religion.

    You asked “Do you believe what is really written in my Bible?” How dare you come in my blog and ask that question. Of course I believe what is written in my Bible. All 66 Books in it, too. This kind of question comes from a spirit of doubt, and I am very well-grounded in faith.

    I completely disagree with your assertion that I have no power or priesthood authority in Christ. When did I receive such power? When I was born again and became a Christian. Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 10 that they have all power and authority. Please read it. He reiterated this grant of power and authority in Matthew 28:18-20. The early Church in the Book of Acts then operated in this same power and authority. So should we.

    I must issue a correction. Ezekiel 37 does not make any reference to the Book of Mormon. Your interpretation of this passage is completely incorrect and has no solid basis. The two sticks represent the Jews and the Gentiles, and the unity represents what is yet to happen in the Kingdom of God, when God will unite together His two chosen people (Israel and the Church) in the Last Days duringn the millenial reign. This is also what it means when the lion will lay down with the lamb. Saying that the stick of Ephraim is the Book of Mormon is violating other verses which say “no prophecy is of private interpretation.” You just made a private interpretation, which is invalid exegesis at best, and heretical at worse.

    Scott, you need to come to your senses and be delivered from the false doctrine that you perpetuate. I will not allow my blog to be a vehicle for you to perpetrate LDS doctrine. Titus 3:10-11 says, “Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.” Scott, in the Greek, the word for “factious man” really means a heretic. As an adherent to Mormonism, which is heretical, you are a heretic. When I rebuked you the first time, that was your first warning. This is your second warning. If you come back and continue to espouse your heretical Mormon beliefs here in my blog, then you will not have heeded the first and second warnings, and I will be forced to reject you under Titus 3:10-11, which means that I will blacklist you from commenting on my blog. I’d rather not do this, because I love you with the love of the Lord, but your teachings are divisive and heretical, and they do not belong here. It is one thing if you come and have questions and comments that are legitimate for me to respond to, specifically about the topics I discuss on my blog. It is totally another thing for you to challenge my faith, and be divisive by presenting the LDS heretical teachings. Again, please consider this your second warning. The next time you come like this, I will respond, and then you will be blacklisted and not allowed to comment again.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan

    Comment by Jonathan — January 12, 2007 @ 11:57 pm

  7. Jonathan,

    You must respond however you feel appropriate. I’m not coming with divisiveness but with truth of the gospel.

    I believe you are sincere in what you are saying, I just know that you are incorrect in your teachings. Just like every other Christian denomination. I do not know which one you belong to, if any, but they are all teaching false doctrines.

    Mormons believe in the same organization that existed in the church that Christ established on the earth, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists and so forth. These are all for the perfecting of the saints and edifying the body of Christ as Paul said in Eph 4.

    Paul also said there is only on Lord, one faith and one baptism in verse 5. If this is true, then why so many churches? Each of you professes to believe that the Bible is the word of God, yet each of you interprets the Bible so differently. Why is that? Why are there so many different churches? Where are these apostles and prophets to receive revelation to guide the church as was done in olden times?

    Heb 1:1-2 and Amos 3:7 teach us that God uses His prophets to run His church.

    You state that you received power and authority when you were born again and became a Christian. Hebrews 5:4-6 tells us that no man can take this honor upon himself except he be called as was Aaron. Christ was a High Priest in the Melchizedec Priesthood. This is only done by the laying on of hands. Did you receive this laying on of hands? No you did not. So in essence you took ‘power’ into your own hands and not in the prescribed manner in which the prophets taught in the Bible. Christ ordained His own apostles, right?

    There was an apostasy of the church that Christ established. History tells us of the killing of the prophets and since they weren’t able to meet together to call others in their stead as Matthias as (Acts 1:23-26) the church fell apart and all authority was lost. Reference 2 Thes. 2:1-12 and 1 Tim 4:1-3 for scriptures about the apostacy before the Second Coming.

    2 Tim. 4:3-4 says, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    This is where many in the so-called Christian world are Jonathan. They have itching ears and can not endure sound doctrine. And most unfortunately, they turn away from the truth! How can that be? How can anyone seeking the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ turn away truth?

    Jonathan, you stated, “Scott, what do you mean by “modern scripture” – ? Do you believe that the Bible as it currently stands is insufficient?

    If you believe that the Scripture, as it currently stands, is being added to TODAY, then you are violating what it says in the Bible, and you are also proving my point that Mormonism and LDS is a false religion.”

    I say again, no where does it state what you are saying in the Bible, NO WHERE! Your references to the more sure word don’t mean what you are trying to interpret them as. And yes, Ezekiel 37 means exactly what I said it does in my previous post. Where do you think Christ meant when he said that he had other sheep he has that are not of this fold? (John 10:16)

    Jonathan, I’m sorry that your eyes are so closed and your heart is unwilling to hear the word of God. For some reason you are choosing to remain in the dark. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” so I conclude with words for Jesus Christ himself about people who speak as you do concerning all scriptures…

    From the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29…
    3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
    4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
    • • •
    6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
    • • •
    10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

    Jonathan, what are you closing yourself off to if I am right. Read James 1:5 and then go for it!

    If you want to know more, you know where to find me.

    Scott

    Comment by Scott — January 15, 2007 @ 1:02 am

  8. Scott,

    I am going to respond to your post beginning in the paragraph below, but after I finish with this, I am going to have to block you from posting here again. I do not appreciate you sharing excerpts from the Book of Mormon here. Its totally inapprorpriate, and I do not want my readers to see your view, and interpret that as mine. That being said, #1, if anyone else is reading this, please understand that Scott’s views are not my own, and #2, Scott, after I post this comment, you are going to be blocked from posting in my blog again.

    Scott, just so that you know, I am a charismatic, non-denominational Christian. So, if you wanted to know my “denominational” background, that is it.

    I agree with you that the purpose of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are for perfecting and equipping believers for ministry. I believe that God continues these office gifts today.

    Scott, to be honest, I don’t know why the Body of Christ divides over so many issues. Its really sad. But I do not believe any particular group, be it the Mormons, the Catholics, the charismatics, the Lutherans, the Methodists, or even the Baptists can claim they are the “true church” or that they have a corner on everything. Such a teaching is divisive, that your group is the “true church” and other believers who have confessed Jesus as Lord in accord with Romans 10:9 are not true Christians. That’s wrong theology, and why I’m not going to allow you to continue such heresy by posting divisive comments in my blog.

    The purpose of modern-day apostles and prophets is not to receive “special revelation” to guide the church in modern times. The purpose of modern-day apostles and prophets actually is to equip and train believers to do the ministry that God has called them to do. Each of the offices does this in a different way. The purpose of a modern-day apostle is to be a pastor of pastors, and to oversee multiple congregations. If you would like to study a good model of this in the Bible, look at the relationship between Paul and Timothy. Timothy was a pastor of a congregation, and Paul was his apostle. Apostles and prophets also have a concurrent function, and that is to establish believers, by speaking foundational truths into their lives, and those foundational truths are identified, in part, in Hebrews 6:1-2, but also more generally in the Word of God. Of course, prophets also prophecy, but any prophetic word must be tested to see if it lines up with the Bible.

    That’s right, every Christian, when you are saved (or born again) receives power and authority to effectively live a godly life of holiness, and also to heal the sick, and cast out demons, just like the first disciples did, when they were born again. Your use of Heb. 5:4-6 to rebut this position is taking Hebrews 5 out of its proper context. Hebrews 5 deals with the high priesthood of Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus is our High Priest. But, the Bible is also clear that every Christian is a king and a priest, and even Romans 5:17 says that “those who receivethe abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness (meaning Christians) WILL reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” Rev. 1:6 also teaches that each believer is a king and a priest unto God. So, Hebrews 5 really is being taken out of context here, and I hope you see that.

    Scott, I disagree with your interpretation of 2 Thess. and 1 Tim. These are futuristic prophecies… they have not occurred yet. They will not occur until the Antichrist comes to power (that is what is spoken of in 2 Thess.).

    Lastly, Scott, the “all Scripture is profitable” verse is the basis for saying the Bible is sufficient for us. We do not need the Book of Mormon. We do not need Doctrine and Covenants. All we need is the Bible, the Word of God, in terms of a final authority for our faith and practice. I am not going to entertain the Ezek. 37 issue or what you quoted from the Book of Mormon any further. You have created enough “private interpretation,” heresy, and divisiveness here. You have failed to heed the first and second warning of Titus 3:10. Thus, after I submit this comment, unfortunately I must block you from posting any further, to avoid you hijacking my blog.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan

    Comment by Jonathan — January 15, 2007 @ 4:05 am

  9. Amen !!! Thank you Holy Spirit for speaking through my brother Jonathan.God you are always with us when satan tries to deceive us.Using the Word of God as our basis of authority,we treat the devil as we would a misbehaving dog.when he tries to do something in our life that he has no right to do,we tell him.Stop that right now in the Name of Jesus . You can’t do that according to this scripture in God’s Word.and we quote the scripture which gives us our legal right to act in Jesus Name. Then we tell the devil.I bind you according to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 in the Name of Jesus and I agree with or loose the Holy Spirit to do His perfect will in this situation according to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18.Much Love your sister in Christ

    Comment by Cassandra Bernal — March 20, 2009 @ 5:20 am


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